The Business of Life with Dr King
Dr Ariel Rosita King brings on a variety of International guests from various countries, cultures, organisations, and businesses to talk about turning
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The Business of Life with Dr King
Dr. Nico Van Oudenhoven: Finding Collateral Beauty Amidst Adversity and Inspiring Global Youth Empowerment
What if beauty could be found in the most unexpected places—even amidst adversity and hardship? Join us as we explore this compelling question with our special guest Nico van Oudenhoven, who introduces the paradigm of "collateral beauty," a concept that stands in stark contrast to the familiar notion of collateral damage. Through Nico’s work with young people and families in challenging environments, we uncover stories of resilience and creativity that emerge even in the darkest situations. From slums that paradoxically draw admiration to communities sparking hope during conflict, Nico's insights reveal how beauty and hardship often coexist in surprising ways.
Journey with us as we examine the powerful role of creativity and empowerment in youth. Even as technology sometimes isolates, it also connects, offering young people a chance to engage with the world and build their self-confidence. Nico shares stories of young women in Iran finding empowerment through these global connections, and we discuss how parents can guide their children through this digital maze. Our reflection on children's rights leads us to confront the complexities of advocating for their intrinsic value, a subject that continues to evolve and challenge us.
As global conflicts resurge, we see a new awareness and empathy emerging among today's youth. Drawing inspiration from figures like Greta Thunberg, we discuss how this younger generation demonstrates a strong sense of global citizenship and interconnectedness, embodying the essence of "collateral beauty." We also touch on its presence in professions like medicine and psychology, highlighting the need for humility, gratitude, and the recognition of beauty in the act of helping others. This episode leaves us hopeful for a compassionate future, driven by the awareness and unity of a connected world.
Music, lyrics, guitar and singing by Dr Ariel Rosita King
Teach me to live one day at a time
with courage love and a sense of pride.
Giving me the ability to love and accept myself
so I can go and give it to someone else.
Teach me to live one day at a time.....
The Business of Life
Dr Ariella (Ariel) Rosita King
Original Song, "Teach Me to Live one Day At A Time"
written, guitar and vocals by Dr. Ariel Rosita King
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And welcome to the Business of Life. Thank you so much for joining us today. We have a very special guest and a very good friend and he is going to Mr Nico van Oudenhoven and he's going to be speaking about a concept called collateral beauty. Welcome, sir. Thank you so much for being on our podcast, thank you so much for being on our podcast.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:It's a pleasure, ariel. I just read the book and there are so many things that I didn't know and I know now that I'm really happy that we met. Honestly, it's a pleasure.
Dr Ariel King:Thank you so much and thank you for referring to my book. Some people won't see it. It's called Humanity Unveiled and thank you so much for purchasing the book and more importantly, thank you for reading the book, really appreciate it.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Well, it's easy and you know what you can do. You can rifle through it. You know you don't read it from the beginning to the end. You can start in the middle and then at the end, and then you have another chapter and you go back again. So it's a pleasure reading it.
Dr Ariel King:Thank you, sir. That's a true compliment from you. Thank you.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:There are nice ideas that come to the fore, really, really nice ideas which make you feel good about what you're doing and about the people you're working with.
Dr Ariel King:Thank you. I think that this idea of humanity is very important. It's something that even myself, I forgot the language of humanity. I know the language of even myself. I forgot the language of humanity. I know the language of war. I know the language of uh, of getting ahead. I know all kinds of languages, but I forgot the language of humanity and I decided it was time to remember so true, and that's why I like that you define humanity in different ways.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:You say humanity is opportunity, and then humanity is, you know, is, resilient, and then humanity is something else and authenticity. I really like that, because then you, you go back to what humanity's kindness, you know what humanity really is. Yeah, compassion, I like that. That's a very nice approach.
Dr Ariel King:Yeah, thanks thank you, sir nico. That's so, listen. I'm so excited to talk about this idea of collateral beauty. Would you like to start with just giving us a simple idea of what is collateral beauty? And why it's important to you.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Thank you, sir. We are familiar with the concept of collateral damage. You'd like to bomb a nearby military base and you bomb a school right, or you bomb a wedding party, and that's called collateral damage. But collateral beauty is something else. That means there are many bad things happening in the world and yet there's beauty to it. To give a very stark example, which I don't like but still it's there when the Americans were testing atomic bombs in the deserts in the United States, las Vegas, they were party organized, party organized to see the explosions and there were even party cocktails amidst atomic bomb. So you know, if you think about it, awful things happened and yet people are celebrating it, because there's also beauty to seeing a bomb explode.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:You see, if you're really cynical, you can see, particularly in the medical and the helping professions. The people are miserable, they need help, but the doctors and the nurses, everybody, everybody who's helping, they benefit from it. So that's collateral beauty. The damage is there, people are sick, they're miserable, and yet the people who help them, they enjoy a nice life, which is collateral beauty. It's a beauty, part of it, you follow me?
Dr Ariel King:Yes, I do. I actually like that. I understand. It's almost like the phoenix coming out of the fire or the Chinese concept of crisis and opportunity, yin and yang. Without one side, you have the other. Is that something we're talking about when we talk about collateral beauty?
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Yeah. And now if you go back to our field, my field is that I would like to work at the intersection of research, policymaking, training and advocacy of young people and their families exposed to what I call toxic environments. What are toxic environments Are? You know, poverty, discrimination, refugee status, isolation, people in hospitals and orphanages? You know they're exposed to what I call toxic environments, miserable yeah.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Now there are two things there. First of all and you know that I think better than I do if you work with those families or you work with those young people, you see that they come often with solutions that are absolutely marvelous. You know lots of misery, but still some people manage to cope, to get a child into school, to protect their girls, to remain faithful husbands, and that I call collateral beauty. In spite of the misery, in spite of the hardship you know it's going on in Gaza at the moment there's still people helping others and there's still solutions found to cope with all the misery, and that's what I call collateral beauty, and we as outsiders have to validate and build on that and appreciate that.
Dr Ariel King:I really love that concept. That concept, I think, is quite important. What's interesting to me is that you were talking about the intersection especially since you are doing a lot with children's rights and children's human rights the intersection of research, right, and also not just research, but what's happening in their daily lives, whether it's violence, whether it's poverty, as you said, whatever it is, and there are times we call this trauma, but whatever you call it. So I find that quite interesting. So are you seeing that part of the research is not just looking at what the negative or what we see as being the negative, but also what's the positive effects of these possibly seen negative?
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Yes, two concepts. For example, the largest tourist attraction in India is at the moment.
Dr Ariel King:What is it?
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Not the Taj Mahal.
Dr Ariel King:The Ganges.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:The slums in Mumbai. Ah, you know, because the tourists, they like to see that misery. That's the beauty of misery, it's a very yeah. How can I say yeah? You know, how can I say what's the concept?
Dr Ariel King:Pardon me, are you saying that there are tourists that go to Mumbai to see the slums, but out of the slums doesn't come culture and music and other things besides? What's negative?
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Yeah, but you know the slums of New York and therefore a long time popular for the upper class, the Americans and the British, to visit those slums. They found it interesting. They are now tourist officers. They organize trips, take trips to the slums in Mumbai just to see human misery, and then they say, well, you can contribute a little bit and you can, you know, to the poor and all that. But in fact it's curiosity. But back to your central question. There's an interesting concept and it's called positive deviance. Now, what is positive deviance? It's that you can see in the most miserable situations you often it's very rare you see something very nice and poverty. I'll give you two examples.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:In Vietnam, if you go to the rural areas, there's a lot of malnutrition. There used to be malnutrition. I haven't been in Vietnam for a long while so I don't know anymore but at the time children were malnourished. But the funny thing was not all children were malnourished. But the funny thing was not all children were malnourished. Why is that? When farmers went to their fields, they fed their children in the morning and in the evening. But children couldn't eat a lot because they have tiny little stomachs, so they got hungry. But some farmers, they came back in the afternoon and gave the children something to eat and they were not malnourished. So that's a locally invented solution. Something else If you go to the slums in Nairobi, in Matara Valley, most of the teachers they discipline the children by hitting their students, by hitting them on the head.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:It's common practice, the teacher thinks it's a good thing, the student thinks it's a good thing and the parents think it's a good thing, otherwise still they won't learn. They argue, but still there are one or two teachers and they don't hit the children and the children do equally well. So it's called positive deviance. Another example I don't know what's still going on, but in my days, when I visited Bangkok, the story went that young sex workers, they were afraid to tell their customers who came from the West, big, strong men, to wear a condom Because they thought if we say that, they lost their clients. But some girls said well, sorry, you better use a condom because I may be infected. So then they put on a condom. So there are positive deviance. It's deviant in the sense that it's not normal, it's not common, but still it's very positive, it's effective and you can build on those things.
Dr Ariel King:I love that. I love that. Such an interesting concept. You know, with today's young people, with the life that they have compared to the life even 20 years ago, with all kinds of technology, with all kinds of apps, the life to even 20 years ago, with all kinds of technology, was all kinds of apps, with all kinds of young people even dancing on on various apps or talking on various apps, posting their pictures on various apps. Can you tell me and I would love to understand collateral, collateral, beauty and technology with young people today? Is there some and if so, what is it?
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Well, what worries me is that, if we look at the social media and all that, the role of traditional mediators is disappearing. Let's say, in the old days it was the parents and the teachers who influenced the children. They had a direct relationship with the children. Now there is something in between. Because of the smartphones and the social media and the digital things, parents become sidelined. You know, they don't reach the children anymore, the teachers. At the same time, they also lose their role as traditional mediator, and that, I think, is pretty pretty. I would call it yeah, it's pretty tricky. What you see is that more and more children they live in the now, they lose their connection with the past and they lose their connection with the future. I think that is at least worrisome. I think to have a mature life, you have to feel connected with the past and with the future.
Dr Ariel King:you have to feel connected with the past or with the future, you know perhaps, maybe one of the issues as a result of that is more people feel disconnected, more young people. There's more, unfortunately, if not actual suicides, attempted of suicides, more people really not just comparing themselves but hating who they are because they are not what they think they are.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Well, you're right. You're right, the literature is filled with that. You know, there are now movements that say children should not use their phone in the classroom, or children should not have a phone at that particular age. But you're right. In spite of all the connections they make, they become disconnected to the traditional people they should have been or used to be connected with. You know, an extreme example is, of course, that now you've seen uptick in people who get attached to visual partners. You know even example of people who got attached to virtual partners. You know even example of people who got married to a virtual partner.
Dr Ariel King:Yeah, I must say that's quite off. You know, I just want to get back to young people because I have to say I mean you and I both look at young people and children, and one of my concerns about technology. So this idea of collateral beauty I'm looking for, I'm searching for the silver lining within this particular situation, the beauty outside of all the difficulties. So I'm wondering, what do you think that might be?
Dr Van Oudenhoven:If you work with young people and their parents directly, then you directly, and which is a privilege for people like me, because basically I live in Canada or in Holland and it's always a privilege when I have the opportunity to meet with young people in orphanage or in a refugee camp. You know, there's a one or two days and then I feel that there's a lot of good things happening there and our task then is to at least to validate that and to tell the people that they're doing marvelous work and to bring it to scale, if you can, so you can take the lessons that you learned there you can take somewhere else. I've written a couple of books, but all the ideas basically in those books have been stolen from the interaction with young people, children and their parents. Even the notion of collateral beauty I've stolen it from being with them.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:You walk in a slum. You see that some people manage. They have a little garden, they have a little fruit garden. And how come they have a little fruit garden? You learn from them. You see that you see incredible creativity and it's given free to you. The only thing you have to do as an outsider. And they preach a man or a boy or a father or a sir. What you're doing is marvelous, absolutely marvelous work.
Dr Ariel King:You think maybe pardon me for interrupting, I mean, you really have me thinking a lot. I love this. Do you think that part of the collateral damage for having so much technology at the fingertips of young people is that, although they might feel isolated and alone, the positive is that the creativity is sparked. They have connectivity to other people in the world. They no longer their world is no longer just their family and their community, but a larger world. So perhaps that's the collateral beauty. Oh, yes, ariel, you're right, I never thought about it but you're right, yeah.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:If you look at the Middle East the people who are now connecting with their peers in other worlds they learn a lot. They get self-confidence because most people feel that their liberty is being restricted, and they see that they're right in that feeling. If you look at the young women in Iran, for example, they're absolutely right that they should not adhere to the strict dress codes that the government imposes on them. You know, Many women know that they're absolutely right to feel that they should be respected, that they have equal rights, and they know that through the interaction with the wider world.
Dr Ariel King:Wow. So that connection. That's amazing. I want to thank you for that, because there's so many I mean even myself as a parent have to deal with these idea of technology. And am I the primary, or are family members the primary influence? Are we the primary people to say what our values are and what we expect, or is it the wider world can be positive that there are positive effects from us all being so connected, not just negative effects, especially for children today, which I have one of the biggest concerns about.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Cool, but I think you, as a parent no, no, no, don't thank me, but as a parent you also should stay with your children up to a certain age. You should not be afraid of running away. It's your right and they need it that you're around and stay in touch with them.
Dr Ariel King:Right, it makes a big difference.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Yeah, yeah.
Dr Ariel King:I'm not sure if you can tell us, but what are you working on now in terms of? You know all the work that you do with young people, the work that you've done over the years, not just for the rights of young people but for people to basically understand children and understand who they are and their value within the world. What are you working on these days? What are you excited about today when it comes to children, their rights, their responsibilities and the wider world understanding the importance of children?
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Well, I don't know anymore. How can I say that you know? How can I?
Dr Ariel King:say that you can take your time, since it's in English. No, no, no.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Let me explain. When I start to think, really, I stutter. Until things happened in Sudan, somalia and in Ukraine and in Gaza, I was fairly positive. I thought well, things are getting better. I didn't expect the misery that you see now in, as I said, sudan and in Ukraine and in Gaza. I didn't expect that. That stops me from telling how I feel. I thought we were beyond that. We could negotiate things. We could, you know, we could massively abhor all forms of violence.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:I believe that human rights and the rights of women and the rights of children and the rights of indigenous people, and missing that is the rights of women and the rights of children and the rights of indigenous people, and missing that is the rights of nature. But that's getting there. I thought they would guide people. I tell you a little story.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Once I was in Nicaragua and I was in a school for what they call in those days mentally retarded children with learning difficulties, and I asked one of the boys. I asked him does the boys? I asked him does the teacher hit you? And then the boy, who must have had an IQ of 67 or so, he said no, the teacher won't hit me because it's against the rights of the child, and I found it fantastic. I found it fantastic, you see, yes, because I thought, you see, the world knows now what the rights of children are, the world knows what the rights of women are, and now we have that. You know, we are on the verge, perhaps, of a third world war, and I didn't expect that. So I'm far less forthcoming now with what. Do you think of what has to be done? Yes, I understand that.
Dr Ariel King:May I ask this? I mean with you, know, saying that children seem to know what their rights are. Do you think perhaps one of our saving graces was as difficult as the world is right now, that children are more interconnected with other children or other people from all over the world, and they do know their rights? Do you think that perhaps that's the collateral beauty that's going to come out of all of this?
Dr Van Oudenhoven:True, but yeah, I think there are children and young people who feel that way. I don't know how many there are or proportions. You know there's a lot of critique on Generation Z that they are selfish, that they are short-sighted, that they are narcissistic, that they don't pay forward. But in addition to that, there are also young people who are indeed showing their way, but I don't know their relative numbers, their relative position. But there are certainly young people who feel that way. Absolutely, absolutely.
Dr Ariel King:So perhaps you know even myself I can look at whatever happens that we have children who are so connected to various parts of the world. The world is no longer very small. When I was young, the world was extremely small. Now they have the possibility of seeing and understanding and maybe even having a better sense of brother and sisterhood than we did, because they play games with people from other places in the world.
Dr Ariel King:They are able to communicate with them and maybe they have a sense of not just belonging to the family and a town and a country, but perhaps children have a sense of not just belonging to the family and a town and a country, but perhaps children have a sense of now belonging to the world.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Yeah, I think you're absolutely right Not all of them, but there are certainly a significant part of them. Yeah, I'm with you there and I've met them, and I've met them. You know, greta Thunberg is not the only one.
Dr Ariel King:No, there are many more that don't have a voice. This is one. May I ask would you like to tell us anything else before we end? About collateral beauty? I think I love the term and I'm going to be seeing how I can use it more often. Say it again no, would you like to tell us anything more about collateral beauty before we end up, I think it's a nice concept and it also leads to.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:I think the most important thing is, if you look at the medical profession or the psychological profession, they live off people and they should realize that. They should realize that they are enjoying collateral beauty and I think that should lead to being more humble and more grateful and more appreciative.
Dr Ariel King:Oh, I love that, I love that. So collateral beauty and understanding it doesn't mean that you are entitled, but that you should be grateful and humble.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:You should be grateful. Yeah, absolutely yeah. Thank you so much for this interview.
Dr Ariel King:It was so interesting and we appreciate it no thanks.
Dr Van Oudenhoven:Thanks for the nice question. It was really nice of you. Thank you, sir.
Dr Ariel King:Thank you, sir, amazing. I just want you to know I'm so happy that we got to do this talk and I want to thank the audience for joining us for the Business of Life.